蝌蚪字及(白话字可以适当加入拼写漳泉发音的字母吗?)

刚看了(白话字可以适当加入拼写漳泉发音的字母吗?)一栏。
http://www.gophor.com/hokkien/vi ... &extra=page%3D1

我用蝌蚪字写,26个字母不多不少,泉州腔,漳州腔,潮州腔都一统天下,八个声调都写出来了。厦台的/e/,/ue/ 问题也都处理好了。连调片语,轻声全部也都处理好了。http://www.tadpolenese.com/ 我当然是写厦台腔多,因为厦台腔歌曲多。再来是潮州歌曲。但是基本理论是泉州也没问题的,泉州的/ɨ/及/ə/也处理好了:用[y]及[oe]。老实说,蝌蚪字写的是有点接近(半古闽南语)。

蝌蚪字也是种跟汉语拼音很接近的闽南语拼音字。它也不需要安装特殊软件,特殊字形。

我觉得做事情最重要的就是解决问题的决心。明明问题很单纯,就是很多人跳不出传统的思考模式,绑住了自己的手脚。

我做蝌蚪字并不是叫大家采用。是抛砖引玉叫大家跳出传统的思考模式。闽南语拼音最大的盲点就是一大堆人都想选一个系统,吵来吵去,为了目的而忽略了过程。英语从Chaucer时代英国人开始乱写自己的口音(那时候本来是只写法语),今天英语是世界最强势的语言。只要能接受改变,什么问题都可以解决。这就是蝌蚪字的主旨。今天拼音那里有问题,那里难用,明天就给它改一改。英语就是这样的语言。Judgement/judgment, acknowledgement/acknowledgment 这些字的拼音都还在变化中。从Chaucer十四世纪到今天,英语拼音改变无数次了。

当然,蝌蚪字是比较接近文字,不是纯音标。对一些非主流的闽南方言是可能不太适合当纯音标用。

大家参考参考就是了。反正拼音字也只不过是一场游戏。玩一玩而已。
有些时候,还是得考虑下用途,而不只是方案的完美性。

白话字毕竟还有很多线上的资源,汉罗夹用的文章也有,虽然不敢望其成为什么标准,但至少是一个亚标准。

Esperanto后面提出的修改方案很多,比如Ido和Interlingua,很多不能不说比Esperanto要更为完美,可是至今还是没有能敌得过Esperanto,使用人数、应用范围和文献丰富性更是难以企及Esperanto之万一。

蝌蚪兄说得很对,关键是“只要能接受改变,什么问题都可以解决”。但困难也在这里。如果一种文字真的希望被接受,其困难之大,是难以想象的。英语如果不是有政经的撑持,也很难做到这一点。所以这个论坛上比较少鼓励独创性的智力型方案,而是比较恪守传统。当然这可以被说成是保守,然而保守也未尝不是一种可取的态度吧。至少我觉得。

蝌蚪兄的观点和思路,或许比较接近赵元任博士设想的“通字方案”吧。

PS 拼音字是否只是“玩一玩”的游戏,恐怕就见仁见智了。至少我对这个问题持保留意见。当然在中国,搞拼音化是绝对行不通的,这点我也绝对承认。但某种形式的混用文作为一种亚标准我还是比较赞赏的。至少现在线上已经有许多前辈的实践和资源了,尤其在台湾地区。
Tshṳ̂-pui Avalokiteśvara Phŏ-sat pó-hō tshuân-ke-nâng jît-jît phêng-an!
蹉跎莫遣韶光老 人生唯有讀書好 學須靜也  才須學也

--------------------------------------------
潮州话八调代表字:
1胎tho 2讨thó 3退thò 4托thoh
5逃tô 6在tŏ 7袋tō 8夺tôh
潮罗特殊变体:[ɯ]=ṳ=ur;[ã]=aⁿ=an;
[aʔ8]=âh=a̍h;[ts]=ts=ch;[tsʰ]=tsh=chh
原帖由 輶轩使者 於 2008-11-24 11:11 發表
当然在中国,搞拼音化是绝对行不通的,这点我也绝对承认。但某种形式的混用文作为一种亚标准我还是比较赞赏的。
汉语方言绝对是双向进行的。一方面从古书找汉字,一方面要有拼音系统。这不是单纯闽南语的问题。

我问你看看,吴语的MTV/Karaoke伴唱带,用汉字写,你唱得出来吗?

看看新一代的伴唱带,一大部分都是汉字一行,拼音字再一行。这是逃不了,避免不了的。有了拼音字,连老外都能唱。所以并不是(搞拼音化是绝对行不通),而是(不搞拼音化是绝对行不通)。

好了,你有闽南语的拼音字,吴语人他们也都在搞拼音字。粤语,客家话也不是没有拼音字。将来湘语,赣语都来搞。让你眼花缭乱。几十种拼音方案,你想大家可能跟汉语拼音离开关系吗?

所以,不管你历史如何如何,跟汉语拼音骨架脱离关系是行不通的路线。这点从新加坡的伴唱带是看得非常明显的。

大家当然会说,伴唱带的拼音不用标得那么仔细。不过,你想想看,标得仔细一点的好处在那里?对了,就是 Search Engine 搜索得到。你 Google 上 Sna Snia Voonair 或是 Daln voo laang 打一打,看看找到什么网页。这是拼音字厉害的地方:全世界每一台计算机都搜索得到,无论你是讲那一种语言的人。你想将来伴唱带公司会忽略这一点吗?你想他们会用声调记号,还是用赵元任式的声调拼音?那一种声调处理方法会让全世界最多的人用最简单的方法而且最正确地找到资料?难道你想要求全世界的人都改学教罗拼音,都该装教罗软件?然后再来装个吴语湘语赣语的拼音软件?

所以,我个人的看法是,方言歌词 lyrics 在将来的国际社会绝对是双向进行,拼音字是绝对逃不了的。刚刚开始时是会很乱没错,但是时间一久,越来越有更多人会觉得既然要写拼音字,不如干脆写得清楚一点,写得正式一点,这样搜索也方便一点。这不是什么政治决策能控制的。这是市场机制,谁也控制不了。
本人觉得实用是第一位
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真剣にやると、知恵が出る。

Ĉiu rajtas lerni la gepatran lingvon,kaj la internacian lingvon.

namah samanta buddhanam vajra me

微博  http://weibo.com/bambooheng
原帖由 vudik 於 2008-11-26 21:51 發表
http://www.tadpolenese.com/打不开,请附件贴图给我们看看蝌蚪字。。。如果蝌蚪字夹用于白话文(必须符合本字为主的正字规范)中,与汉字能更和谐,兼容于既有的操作系统,也不要增加多少记忆量,那我表示支持。 ...
蝌蚪字主要是对外(不会说/写闽南语的群众),不是对内(会说/写闽南语的群众)。下面这首歌只是一个例子。目前我已尝试改写了差不多二十来首。蝌蚪字只是一个idea,是叫大家脱出传统思考模式,并不是说大家非得用我的拼音选字法。我个人是很累了。十几年来十几亿汉语群众,就只我一个人搞蝌蚪字。(我中间是停了七八年)。我倒是很希望有别人继续努力。蝌蚪字是汉语拼音有史以来的真正的拼音字,而不是拼音音标。我个人的看法是,未来二十年内,闽南语是唯一真正有可能有(拼音字)而不是的(拼音音标)汉语。大家将来用不用没关系,不过作为一个科学试验来证明汉语真的能用拼音字,倒是应该做的。

Ge'Aurl 家後

Url jid rid. laln nar laurl,
coer voo laang. gar laln yul'hauc,
qual eurl buee lyl zeorl diamp yil'liaau,
tnia lyl golng siaucleen. e siizurn. lyl url ruar qaau;
Jiaq hol. jiaq vail. voo gecgauc,
oant tni. oant deor. marl  veurl hiaul;
Lyl e ciul, qual eurl gar lyl kan diaau'diaau,
yinwir qual sirl lyl e Ge'Aurl;

Quln. jiong cengcun. gec dirl lyln dau;
Quln duic siaucleen. doec lyl doec gah laurl;
Riinzeeng. Sec'Sur. yilgeng knuac tauc'tauc,
url sniah laang. bil lyl kah diorng'yauc?
Quln e yitseng. hent hour lyln dau,
jiah zai hernghok. sirl cal'cal-naur'naur;
Dalntair dylng`kyc. e siizurn. nar gauc,
qual eurl niur lyl seng zaul...
yinwir qual eurl m gam-...
bank lyl wir qual vagsail. laau;

Url jid rid. laln nar laurl,
url simbur-gnial'rii. yul'hauc,
lyl nar voo liaau, teq laln e sionkpnic,
knuac kahzal. gethun. e siizurn. lyl ruar eendaau;
Cirng hol. cirng vail. voo gecgauc,
guaic'dang-guaic'sai. marl veurl hiaul;
Lyl e sim, qual eurl yelng'oaln. gic diaau'diaau;
yinwir qual sirl lyl e Ge'Aurl;

Quln. jiong cengcun. gec dirl lyln dau;
Quln duic siaucleen. dioq doec lyl doec gah laurl;
Riinzeeng. Sec'Sur. marl yilgeng knuac tauc'tauc,
url sniah laang. bil lyl kah diorng'yauc?
Quln e yitseng. hent hour lyln dau,
jiah zai hernghok. sirl cal'cal-naur'naur;
Dalntair dylng`kyc. e siizurn. nar gauc,
Lyl dioq niur qual seng zaul...
yinwir qual eurl m gam-...
knuac lyl wir qual vagsail. laau;



Behind You

One day, when we get old,
when we can't find people to take care of us,
I'll sit next to you on the bench,
listen to your endeavors from your younger days.
It doesn't matter whether we have fancy meals,
neither do we know to blame luck or people.
Your hand, I'll hold it tight,
because I am always behind you.


I spent the best time of my life, married to you in a family.
I followed you from young to old.
Life's stories, I have seem them all,
who else is more important than you?
I dedicated my life to a family,
only to find out that happiness comes with its ups and downs.
When the time of departure comes,
I'd let you go first...
because I cannot hold the thought that...
I'd leave you in tears for me.


One day, when we get old,
and our children are there for us,
if you get bored, let us go over our picture albums,
and check out how handsome you were at our wedding.
It doesn't matter whether we have fancy clothes,
neither do we know to blame anything.
Your heart, I'll always keep it on my mind,
because I am always behind you.


I spent the best time of my life, married to you in a family.
I followed you from young to old.
Life's stories, I have seem them all,
who else is more important than you?
I dedicated my life to a family,
only to find out that happiness comes with its ups and downs.
When the time of departure comes,
You should let me go first...
because I cannot hold the thought that...
I'd see you in tears for me.

tadpolense.jpg (81.68 KB)

tadpolense.jpg

explanation 略述

Hoklo has a very pristine tonal-phrase structure (連調片語) not shared by other major Chinese dialects such as Mandarin or Cantonese. Hoklo belongs to the stereotonic dialectal group of Chinese (雙調漢語方言系統), as opposed to Cantonese or Mandarin, which belong to the monotonic dialectal group (單調漢語方言系統). Hoklo's tonal-phrase structure is almost done at mathematical precision, and the essence of Tadpolenese is to provide a script that captures this crucial aspect of the language. Spelling choices for individual words are a secondary issue.

The following discussion is a bit technical and is not meant for casual readers. I apologize for the briefness of this page.

Running tone and standing tone 動調及靜調

Because Hoklo is a stereotonic language, generally speaking, each Hoklo syllable (單字) can be pronounced with one of two tones: its running tone (動調), or its standing tone (靜調). Standing tone is used in phrase-final position, running tone is used in non-phrase-final position.

Tonal-phrase marker (.) 片語斷號

A period (.) is used to mark the end of a tonal phrase. This means that, in general, the syllable immediate preceeding the period is pronounced with its standing tone. If the phrase is sentence-final (e.g: ending with semi-colon, question mark, or exclamation mark), then those sentence-final marks also automatically indicate the end of the phrase, so no additional period sign is needed.

Semicolon (;) 分號

Since Tadpolenese uses period sign as phrase-final marker, we have to use a different symbol for the normal sentence ending. Semicolon is chosen because of its user-friendliness on English keyboard.

Apostrophe (') 撇號

Apostrophe is used whenever clarity in syllable separation is needed.

Hyphen (-) 連字號

Hyphen is used to mark major separation in syllables, that is, syllable separations that need a clarity beyond what an apostrophe can indicate. Hyphen is also used syllabic-finally to indicate continuation of phrase, or equivalently, usage of running tone instead of standing tone.

Neutralized suffixes and neutralization marker (`) 輕聲尾語及輕聲記號

In common Hoklo language usage, additional information (suffixes) is often inserted after the phrase-final syllable. This additional information serves to qualify the last element of the original tonal phrase. This seems contradictory: if addtional syllables were inserted after the final syllable, then the original final syllable would not be the final syllable anymore, right? Hoklo resolves this dilemma by keeping the standing tone of the original phrase-final, and "neutralizes" the added syllables. The exact pitch value of the neutralized syllables follows some complicated rules, but in most common cases the pitch tends to be low.

Example 1:
            Daan; beuh; = a person's lastname (陳), number eight (八).
            Daan`sinsne; beuh`qoeq; =  Mr. Daan (陳先生), August (八月). (Here one observes low neutralized tones.)

Example 2:
            agong. = grandfather (阿公)
            agong`a. = grandpa, expressing endearment (阿公阿). (Here one observes a non-low neutralized tone.)

Example 3:
            aic, hyrn, su; =  to love, to hate, to lose (愛,恨,輸)
            aic`lyl, hyrn`lyl, su`lyl; =  loving you, hating you, losing to you (愛你,恨你,輸你) (One low and two non-low neutralized tones.)

Example 4:
            golng. =  to say (講)
            golng`killaai`ouq. =  now mentioning about it... (講起來喔) (multiple syllables)

Example 5:
            agong`aq. duic`aq- quln`aq. ur`aq- ur gaudaic`ouq; = 阿公矣對矣阮矣 有矣有交代喔
            (Some neutralized tones after running tones, notice usage of hyphen to indicate phrase continuation.)

The 'al diminutive, the `a affective, and the `aq emotive 「仔」跟「啊」跟「矣」

There are some subtle differences between the un-neutralized 'al suffix, the neutralized `a suffix, and the neutralized suffix `aq. When used on persons or professions, the 'al suffix is a dimunitive particle used to show disrespect or disdain, whereas the `a suffix is an affective particle used to show endearment. The `aq suffix is used in general to express grief, helplessness, or completedness.  E.g: hit e hoursur'al. deh yaubal cal; = that little nurse is ranting non-stop; jit e hoursur`a. laang jin hol; = this nurse is a very nice person, and lyl e hoursur`aq, laang voo hol; = sigh... your nurse is not very nice. Notice that in these examples, the three suffixes are each pronounced with a different tone.

Tonal Spelling 聲調拼音

Tones are indicated by usage of specific tonal letters or letter combinations, placed after the vowel cluster. Here is the mapping table in the traditional 8-tone format. The -rl- combination for the Yang-Shang (陽上) category is reserved for those Hoklo dialects that carry that category. In the case of Taiwanese Hoklo, this category is absent.

It is not hard to see that the tonal-letter choices are motivated by their running tone values, instead of standing tone values. The reason to place emphasis on running tones is because in written text for colloquial Hoklo, more than 70% of the syllables are pronounced with their running tones, while only 30% or less of the syllables are pronounced with their standing tones. The choices for (-l-) and (-r-) provide an excellent visual-to-phonetical mapping for the Yin and Yang nature of these tone categories, being -l- a tall letter, and -r- a lower letter. The choice of -rl- also reflects the historical phonology correlation between the Yang-Shang category with today's Yin-Shang (-l-) category and the Yang-Qu (-r-) category.

[见附图]
table.jpg

Two often-used words in Tadpolenese do not carry tonal letters: the possessive e and the negative m. This is for sake of simplicity, otherwise they would become ee and mr. Many neutralized suffixes expressing emotions are chosen to be spelt with the -q ending, like `ouq, `aq.

Nasalization (oral-nasal vowels) 鼻聲 (口鼻母音)

If a syllable starts with a consonant (or can start with a fictitious constant like w- or y-), a medial -n- is placed after the initial consonant. E.g: znii = money (錢), snua = mountain (山), wnual = bowl (碗), ynii = round (圓). For glottal-stop initiated syllable (no initial consonant symbol) containing no initial u or i vowel, we use the ngh- initial. E.g: nghar = pie filling (餡).

Velar-nasal vowel ng 軟顎鼻母音

Besides its consonantal role, the phonetic ng actually also serves as a vowel in many Hoklo words. This awkward vowelless-looking spelling can be made friendlier by introducing a fictitious vowel y. Hence we have yyng = yellow (黃), synk = to calculate (算), byrng = steamed rice (飯).

Fictitious initial consonant w- y- 假聲母

If a syllable initiates with phonetic u- or i-, a fictitious consonants w- or y- is prepended or used as replacement.

Interdialectal romanization 跨方言拼音

This feature is used sparingly, to accomodate words that are pronounced differently in different dialects/sub-dialects, or to bust homonym problems.

E.g:
            qyl = language (語): unifies qil/qul
            geu = chicken (雞): unifies ge/gue/goi
            boe = to fly (飛): unifies be/bue
            gimn = now, today (今): unifies gin/gim
            fhongfuap = method (方法): interdialectal with Mandarin and Middle Chinese

Homonym buster 同音拼異字

This features is used sparingly, to resolve those most common homonym cases.

E.g:
  
            gim = gold (金)
            gimn = now, today (今)

            gail = to change (改)
            gyail = to explain, to dissolve (解)

            hong = wind (風)
            fhong = direction (方)

Comment:

Hoklo is a stereotonic language and has a very unique and pristene tonal-phrase structure. Tadpolenese aims at writing out this tonal-phrase structure explicitly, and also tries to increase the readability by using interdialectal spelling and homonym buster features. Some reasons why Tadpolenese is more readable are: (1) usage of tonal letters instead of diacritics, because in a tonal language, tones actually do carry important information/correlations. For instance, in Hoklo, the Qu tone category (-c/-mp/-nt/-nk/-r) is correlated with the presence of action verbs, and the Yang-Shang tones (-rl) correlated with emotional/auxiliary verbs, so larger-size tone symbols allows better visual-to-grammatical correlation, (3) presence of phrase-final mark (.) is correlated with nouns or noun-like phrases, (4) homonym busters reduce interpretation confusion, (5) interdialectal romanization helps to build in mental correlations for people already familiar with Hanyu Pinyin. Finally, because Tadpolenese uses only 26 letters, it can be typed whereever English can be typed.
字母标调~~~亲~~~
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,   
  

真剣にやると、知恵が出る。

Ĉiu rajtas lerni la gepatran lingvon,kaj la internacian lingvon.

namah samanta buddhanam vajra me

微博  http://weibo.com/bambooheng
我怎麼看不懂邏輯:

吳語有吳語的拼音、客語有客語的拼音、閩南語有閩南語的拼音....
然後怎麼就導向了"跟汉语拼音骨架脱离关系是行不通的路线"?

這兩件事因果關係在哪?

都是南亞語系孟高棉語族的那些語種不只拼寫法不一樣,文字體系就用了幾種?
日爾曼語族的德文、英文、荷文拼寫法也不同...


大概我不是在對岸成長的,比較難以理解為何事事都得追求一體化

回復 #9 Lim 的帖子

嗯,Lim兄可以试试看一下广东省公布的那三套拼音方案(广州话、潮州话、客家话),以及汉语拼音方案的异同~~
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,   
  

真剣にやると、知恵が出る。

Ĉiu rajtas lerni la gepatran lingvon,kaj la internacian lingvon.

namah samanta buddhanam vajra me

微博  http://weibo.com/bambooheng
???

這我有概念啊,台灣的官方客家拼音標準也是近於這流派的

我質疑的只是各家拼音不同是怎麼導出"跟汉语拼音骨架脱离关系是行不通的路线"的?